From tribe pagan
Re: Paganism and Suicide : the classical Buddhist teaching

Re Mama Gaea's question:
"According to your personal beliefs, what do you think happens if one were to commit suicide? "

It's not about my "personal" beliefs. As an individually trained Buddhist guru, I will tell you what the Buddhist teaching makes emphatically clear.

To kill oneself is a form of human murder, and it has unspeakably grave consequences.

Basically, if you commit suicide, you go straight to hell. It is almost impossible to retrieve a consciousness that has committed self-murder.

Try yoga and mantra instead. That would be a needed step and the beginning of a growth cycle.

Free your awareness. Live for that which is highest in yourself and others.

We in the West do not live under the domination or major threat of Communism, Fascism, or Islam, nor under the medieval Catholic Church You have outer and inner freedom here and now, if you will but use it.

K T, dagger priest and medical tantrika
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K
offline K
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  • AllanO'
    AllanO'
    offline 69

    Re: Paganism and Suicide : the classical Buddhist teaching

    Fri, January 25, 2008 - 10:21 AM
    So the Buddhist monks who burned themselves to death in protest against the Vietnam government actions went straight to hell?

    From Wikipedia (on the issue of suicide in Buddhism):
    As with most moral issues, the degree to which [suicide] can be said to be morally wrong will depend on all sorts of factors - the mental health of the individual, the external pressures bearing down on that individual, and ethical factors that might impinge on the situation.

    For example, to what extent is a manic depressive culpable? What about the person who commits suicide because of a broken heart, social rejection, or unbearable physical pain? What about the person who kills himself to save others (a patriot, for example, who captured by the enemy takes cyanide rather than risk revealing under torture the names of his compatriots)? And what about in the Jataka stories (stories of the Buddha's previous lives) where, as a Bodhisattva, the Buddha slits his own throat so that starving tiger cubs may feed off his blood? (The Hungry Tigress). There was also the case of Vietnamese Buddhist monks in the 1960s who set themselves alight in protest against anti-Buddhist policies....

    ...Can suicide ever be justified from a Buddhist perspective?
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  • Sam
    Sam
    offline 41

    Re: Paganism and Suicide : the classical Buddhist teaching

    Mon, January 28, 2008 - 8:25 AM
    K stating someone is "going straight to hell" sounds Christian rather than Buddhist. If this is your teaching as a "trained Buddhist guru". I will respectfully stay far away from your sect.
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    • Cornel
      Cornel
      online 42

      Re: Paganism and Suicide : the classical Buddhist teaching

      Mon, January 28, 2008 - 9:14 AM
      It is unfortunately fairly common among traditional Buddhists to have a simplistic approach to karmic influences. What "K" is saying is really awful in my opinion - but what is even worse is when Buddhists say that being born into poverty is a result one's previous bad karma (ie, poor people deserve to be poor).

      Personally I think that karma and reincarnation are pretty straightforward ideas that make a lot of sense and have a lot of merit. But making specific claims about exactly what happens to us as a result of our karma (especially from one lifetime to the next) usually just makes Buddhists and Buddhism look bad (and stupid).
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  • kalsang
    kalsang
    offline 60

    Re: Paganism and Suicide : the classical Buddhist teaching

    Wed, January 30, 2008 - 12:19 AM
    >Try yoga and mantra instead.

    !!!!

    Anyone who is seriously suicidal does not have control over their emotions. When someone wants to kill themselves, the situation is far, far too grave to "try yoga and mantra instead".

    Indeed, as a Buddhist who has suffered suicidal depression, I find such an arrant platitude offensive. Anyone suicidal has already tried everything they can think of. And it didn't work.

    The best advice is, go and consult a psychiatrist for anti-depressants. It's not nearly as scary and shameful as you think it will be, and the meds are really helpful. I resisted it for years and wish I hadn't.

    And by the way, just to head the normal critiques off at the pass, I'm a trained psychotherapist, I've done therapy, and meds helped where nothing else was working. When someone is suicidal, don't mess around with "yoga and mantra", just as if someone was badly wounded in a car crash you wouldn't advise a spot of T'ai Chi.
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    • Pogi
      Pogi
      offline 57

      Re: Paganism and Suicide : the classical Buddhist teaching

      Sat, February 2, 2008 - 1:30 PM
      Thanks for your post Kalsang.

      After having read several of K's posts here at tribe I have come to the conclusion that he is just a nut who wants attention.

      This might sound harsh but that's the way I see it.

      with metta

      -Pogi
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      • K
        K
        offline 46

        "Self immolation by Buddhist activists in Viet Nam was a life saving personal sacrifice, not mere self-destruction as with typical suicide."

        Tue, February 5, 2008 - 11:01 AM


        "Self immolation by Buddhist activists in Viet Nam was a life saving personal sacrifice, not mere self-destruction as with typical suicide."


        Re: Paganism and Suicide : the classical Buddhist teaching
        Wed, January 23, 2008 - 4:29 PM

        Re Ike on Modern Paganism:
        "Right... if Buddhist teaching makes it emphatically clear, it makes me wonder how they feel about the guys who immolated themselves in protest during the Vietnam war..."

        This is a completely valid criticism. I am aware of the specific situation. It happened in South Viet Nam, in about 1964.

        These seven men and women deliberately immolated themselves, and they did so to protest the police state under the Dictator Diem.

        The Diem regime had rounded up more than eight hundred Buddhist monks as subversives. The monks were all going to be killed.

        This desperation move was done as a sacrifice to save the lives of many more. Although technically this does come under the heading of self-murder, it was done with the intent to save many hundreds of lives, with profound spiritual discipline and meditative awareness. This is quite different than a purely self-destructive act. It was bartering one's own life to save many lives.

        The self-immolations were successful. World opinion was triggered, in France and so forth. The eight hundred monks were freed, and soon after the Diem regime completely collapsed.

        It is a great lesson to us all. A handful of really great Buddhist practitioners or compassionate people can accomplish what an army of ordinary and unevolved people cannot.

        As a noble and most painful self-sacrificing act, this is greatly meritorious in the sense of protecting the Buddhist community, and also more generally in terms of saving human life. As a an act of great compassion, the result is incredibly positive, not spiritually self-destructive.

        Please note that this kind of desperation move is not recommended. Do not try this at home.

        Note also that those who claim a religious authorization to commit mass murder of innocents as human bombs do go straight to hell, because that is what they chose. The presumed "creator god" cannot save these psychopaths from their own karma.

        Thus it is karma and intention that rule, not religious belief systems.

        Everyone makes their own destiny, for good or for evil. Think carefully on this and choose well.

        And thanks for allowing me to honor those who have gone before, and who are by the examples of their own lives so much better at teaching the Law, so much better at helping others, than I am. I am simply bearing witness to really good practitioners.

        As Lady Diana said,
        "I am a humanitarian. I always have been. I always will be."

        All Our Relations. Sarva mangalam.

        In partial fulfillment of mahayana teacher vows,

        K T, inner medical tantrika and dagger priest.
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